Page 32 - Studio International - January 1969

about sculpture; that means to me that there Louw : No, I think that's all a game of senti- been before was very closely prescribed in
are no other references to the world, or to any ment associated with that kind of art. I suspect certain rather rigid ways. Its content was pre-
kind of mental reality or anything else other that Noland and those people are conceptually scribed, the kind of emotional expression it
than the experience of the object. And that it's controlling their feelings more. could have was prescribed, the range of that
rich in a certain way. It's aesthetically rich, ANNESLEY : They conceptualize. That's right, emotional expression was prescribed, the
but in other kinds of ways it is reduced because the feelings come, and they conceptualize their whole damn scene was all in some awful god-
it's very economically devoted to simply evok- feelings a lot more than Tony. Tony is coming dam, dark, murky underground field, and he
ing reactions in terms of itself. I think this is out like I said earlier about the child thing, and opened it up. He brought it above ground, and
his achievement really : to so concentrate on all that. He's not conceptualizing his feelings. back into nature and the world, so you could
what is sculptural in sculpture and to leave out They will conceptualize the structure, I mean look around. And I know we all went round
all the other references. He switched from they will turn on to stripes or cloudy spray, in a out of our minds looking at architectural
making bronze figures to working in steel. very intellectual cool way that isn't Tony. detail, stuff in the streets, and you could look
Now, in the figures, there's a wealth of possible Louw: Isn't that an important distinction ? at anything as potential material. He made
associations to those figures that are outside of ANNESLEY: That's a characteristic of tem- the whole world full of potential material.
sculpture itself. The figures could be crying or perament. It's a difference in degree, not a Louw : You keep talking as if Tony Caro alone
laughing. They're figures as well as being difference in kind. did this.
sculpture. But as soon as you make a figure, TUCKER: I think it's a difference between ANNESLEY : No, he pointed it out, that was all.
as it were, out of non-associative sculptural sculpture and painting. Then other people said, 'Oh, you can do that,
materials, then there is nothing left except ANNESLEY : There's a reality difference. Tony ? I mean is it all right to do that ?' He
the possibility of sculpture reaction, sculpture TUCKER : I think that sculpture has become a said, 'Yes, you don't have to look at all that
emotions. more complex kind of process, as painting has other stuff, enough time for that later, that's
ANNESLEY : That's right. It's like paint. He's become more simple and definable. Tony has all been done. Let's look at some of these new
got the sculpture down, the elements down to kept sculpture pretty complex, although he things. How about making sculpture out of
like paint. tends to talk about it in a simplified painting feathers ? Can we make it out of a balloon ?
TUCKER : Well, when he does it he does that. sort of way. His models for kinds of behaviour Ooh, would it be nice out of cushions?' All
And when he doesn't it really flops. in art don't necessarily correspond to what these lovely ideas he had. 'What can you do
ANNESLEY : He's using sculptural means en- he's actually doing. with it? Can you make it out of anything?
tirely, and thinking about materials as a cer- ANNESLEY : That's right. He's a more valu- What are the rules ? Are there any rules at all ?'
tain kind of reality. able example of how an artist can make art, It was like he was jumping around in about a
Louw: Yes, but one looks for different sculp- than any painter living or dead. Painting I thousand different directions at once. His
tural means than Caro uses. There are inumer- love will tell me about painting reality. It mind was darting around then, wasn't it ? Like
able other qualities that relate to sculptural won't tell me about sculptural reality, except a magpie slipping through the world picking
or actual objects which you can use. David, you obliquely. I think that painting is entirely to up all the stuff and bringing it in. He'd say,
keep relating Caro to all current trends like do with illusory space and colour, and the `Do you know what I saw the other day ?' He
Noland and so on, but I think they belong to a problem in painting has boiled down to what did those nutty evening classes where you had
different category. I think of Caro when I colours to pick, how to pick them, and where to make 'male and female' and 'full fathoms
think of certain Picasso paintings, when I to put them. And what kind of space is pro- five'. He gave us titles and we had to make the
think of David Smith, and when I think of the duced and what it must be as a kind of indeter- sculpture. And 'mind maps'. That was a
Abstract Expressionists. But there it becomes minate space. That's for sure. Or otherwise horrors one. That's opening it up. I thought it
more difficult. Then, when you refer to Noland you are not hip at all, and you can pack up your was. I got madly excited about it. I didn't like
and so on, I think that formally they are work- little painting things and go back to Wyoming. going to the classes because it was like this
ing or thinking in an entirely different way. That's what Ron Davis is in and Stella's in, awful little bit at the end where everybody
ANNESLEY : Well, I'll tell you why I think that and Jules Olitski is in—Jules less, but certainly must be stood up in front of the whole class and
he links, why Noland thinks Caro is a sculptor Noland is in. But Tony isn't in that. It's not he'd say, 'You get ten out of ten, andyou only
who's working like him. This is because Tony illusionary space, it's real space and illusionary get about three out of ten' ... but actually
is making non-modular, non-compositional space combined, and that's weird. making the stuff was nice. Tony felt that the
sculpture, and Noland is making non-modular, Louw: The way you go on, I feel completely competitive framework was somehow neces-
non-compositional paintings. What they look oppressed by Caro's sculptural criteria. I mean sary to provide stimulus and fear of reward and
like doesn't matter. They both want their work at the moment. It's like being swamped with it. punishment to get people off their arses and
to contain and evoke feelings. Their work I think it's a question of finding something that interested in doing things. I wish he hadn't
comes out of feeling and becomes a container is distinctly different from his criteria. There is thought that. Those classes used to be a real
for feeling. Actually making the work is a kind this 'New Generation' image associated with nightmare.
of dialogue of feeling, and an additive pro- Caro that persists in English sculpture, and in TUCKER : I think sculpture's changed. In the
cess, and finally, when the feeling is right, they terms of the sculpture being done here now is past there were very few sculptors and the ones
stop. Their criteria through art is trusting in- perhaps not such a good thing. that really stood out did so as great isolated
tuitively to one's feelings about how to do it TUCKER : But I think Caro has opened up mythic hero figures. I think that one of the
and what you want. That is why they feel like sculpture. There's a kind of cliché for you, but things that Tony's helped to do is to make it
artists who are brothers, I mean, that is as near I think he's made it possible for us to make possible for lots more to be done in sculpture
as I can get to an objective view from what I've sculpture in a way that we couldn't have done and lots more sculptors to be working creative-
heard Tony and these guys say. Jules Olitski had he not existed. For that reason we don't ly. So that the idea of a dominant figure now
talked about this, and he once said quite have to swallow a lot of the crap that he and meets with that much more resistance, and
straight out that he thought the artist could his gang are trying to put about. You can sit rightly so. That's really what it comes to. q
become more like God by making art. He down and talk about things in sculpture that
didn't mean could become a megalomaniac, he has opened up, that aren't necessarily what
he meant he could get closer to living process he thinks he's opened up.
through art. It's to do with feelings, it has to ANNESLEY: It's literally true. It may sound
do with life, it's not to do with death. conventional, but he opened it up. What it had