Page 32 - Studio International - May 1970

BENTHALL You've said in one of your books that sidered the clothes of distinction, the superficial through the kind of experience we're having; and
man is only 'superficially challenged by the seem- thing. This is very important. In other words I find you sitting making a recording of our thoughts to
ing discontinuity of death'. What sort of connection truth is sticking out all over, and it's very surprising process and proliferate them—this process is very
do you make between your ideas and traditional to an older world to see non-conformity... rapid. You spoke about my being optimistic. I'm
religions ? BENTHALL Your attitude to the child would have not really optimistic. I really have enough data to
FULLER I don't find any. Religions to me are—they been very much understood by the romantic poets, tell me that it's possible for man to get somewhere.
are dogmatic. They are interpretations by disciples and in the early nineteenth century. But modern I don't do it on just blind hope at all.
of some who are thinking, of individuals who think psychology seems to have tried to undermine the BENTHALL Could you say something about
and have demonstrated as best they could what it is idea of the child as an embodiment of purity. Do cybernetics and the computer? You've spoken of
they are thinking; and they tend to be allegorical, you have any comment on this? the computer as being something that will help to
as they employ similes, and time and again the FULLER I would say that the modern psychiatrist resolve tensions.
dogma mistakes the simile for the only rule, and I has sort of taken over from the priest today. He has FULLER Yes. Just purely incidentally, Norbert
find that the term religion comes from rules. Now almost no experimental data to work on ...All we Wiener, who employed the word cybernetics in
rules of conduct...if you have a rule of conduct really know is that people are sub-consciously that special context, was a friend of mine. He was
you don't have to think. In other words you have a operative, and Freud did some pretty good guess- an extremely interesting man. And he uses the oar
sort of social construction of behaviour that makes ing about these built-in urges, the sex urges and concept, the steering, and he and his associates like
you come out all right. And so I don't find any things like that, but from then on as far as I can Claude Shannon were responsible for a great deal
difference fundamentally between ideologies and see psychiatry is just a guessing game... of the language we have today, like the word 'feed-
religions—these are patterns of social conduct BENTHALL Aren't you perturbed by the recurrence back', trying to find out just what exactly does go
which seem to me to represent a successful way of of atavistic forces in this century?... Does this on in the processing of information by the brain.
coping with the experience of life, and anything I square with your vision of the basic propensities of And the computer developed that way...I find
talk about is really the antithesis of that, because humanity? humanity beginning to realize the computer as an
I am trying to find out what the principles are that FULLER I observe that man's faculties of observa- externalization of its own brain functioning, that
are operative in the universe, which are very tion have been quite inadequate, as for instance it can be made so it will function where it's too
different from rules. And I find that what are his assumption that everything he sees, smells, cold for our brain: our brain would freeze, but my
really governing us are these principles of the touches and hears is all there is of reality. Whereas computer brain doesn't freeze; and it can operate
universe and not the temporary rules that man we've learnt from the electromagnetic spectrum at heat where my brain would burn up and it
has for getting on under certain conditions. today that we can only tune in on one millionth of doesn't burn up, 'cos we can make it of the right
BENTHALL But you are proposing new possibilities the now known operating reality...I see man has metals to do that. It can operate very much faster.
of meaning in human life, and this perhaps is thought for instance that there is such a thing as a It doesn't get tired. And I know that I get tired.
what all the young people whom you are address- straight line, but then he discovers he can't make So we can have very much more confidence in our
ing are looking for? a straight line. And mathematics talks about the externalized brain functioning in the computer
FULLER There's no question about it. Man is straight line. Physics has found no straight lines, than we do in our own. It has these increased
looking for meaning. And I think our young world only waves ...Nature has no straight lines, and I limits of functioning capability. In the early days
is discontented with what they were told by reli- find man thinking straight lines, and your question of the aluminum airplane in the 1930s, we were
gions, by the dogmatic interpretations...and to me is really as if society ought to be making flying in fog, and we didn't have electronic
they're getting out from under, very much as a those straight lines and the deviations seem wrong. information controls at all, we didn't have con-
child. A little child and a great scientist both want It's not so. Everything is deviation, and everything trolled landings, radar had not begun ...As we
experimental information, they don't want axioms, is oscillating systems, so I expect this...I don't say flew into a cloud bank everybody on board was
they don't want dogma, they want to find out on gravity is good and radiation is bad, these are scared to death, because the pilot didn't know
their own. (Tearing a piece of tissue paper:) 'Does complementaries, and they bring about oscillating whether we were going to come to a mountain
this hold together? Can I hold on to that when systems. So society is fulfilling that design of the next or what, or when he'd get out of the cloud.
I'm falling? No, I can't. I've got to find out.' wave where we get from here to there, but you Today I find they're loaded with humanity, just
A child is apt to find that out very directly and beat to windward and you cannot go straight piling on board as they do on any train, coming
personally. He's not going to believe anything any- lines. So I find society's assumption of straight in towards an airport at 500 m.p.h. in fog at night
body says. 'You just hold on to that and it won't lines, and expecting straight lines—`You've got to seeing nothing; and nobody even worried at all.
tear.' The child says: 'I'm going to find out go straight'—`A crook, a crook is all wrong'—the Why? If they thought it was up to the pilot to get
whether it tears or not', by ripping it. So the child fact is: a crook was doing this pretty much what them through, they'd be absolutely lost. He
is a scientist... People have found that thinking got really had to go on due to the fact that people were couldn't get through at all; we're coming through
them into trouble. They had this wonderful trying to make it straight when it couldn't be on the computerization. So I see society tending
capability and capacity a little child uses and as straight. The crook is a correction for man's error, to trust the computer in a very big way...In the
soon as possible the grown-ups say 'Darling, it just the assumption that he could be straight. US the labour unions had some very good
doesn't pay to use that little bean of yours. You BENTHALL What do you think of Arthur Koestler's mechanics who were putting together the first
catch on to this in the way the rules are, 'cos I'd suggestion that there's a basic flaw in the pro- computers after the war. A very interesting thing
like you to survive. I don't want you to get into a gramming of the human organism? happened. The labour unions studied their
lot of trouble. Every one of my friends, when I was FULLER I don't think Koestler knows enough... economics very assiduously: the auto-workers' and
young, that carried on the way you are, got into COLIN MOORCRAFT (architectural correspondent, aeronautical workers' union said 'While you boys
trouble; so you stop that.' At any rate, the young Friends): Are you familiar with the teachings of are tuning up these things why don't you try and
world is getting out from under, and it is looking Gurdjieff and Ouspensky ? run some big problems in them ?' With the informa-
for its own meanings. It is really a child that has FULLER I knew Gurdjieff... I was anything but a tion they got, Walter Reuther challenged General
not been discouraged too much and is out seeking Gurdjieffian disciple. But I knew a great deal of my Motors, which was the most extraordinarily big
very very vigorously. The fact that you don't have friends who before they went to Alcoholics corporation in history, and confronted them with
to teach being truthful. The child by itself says Anonymous went to Gurdjieff and he made it the fact that the computer showed that the
`That's what I see, that's what I smell', 'cos that's fairly comfortable for them; he would open up his customers of General Motors were also their
the equipment he has and that's the reaction he's daily session with them by a series of thirty three labour. 'So the more you take care of our future
getting...I find the lying and prevarication to get toasts, to all the types of idiots, and by this time life the more customers there are for General
on with the system proliferates very rapidly, but everybody was pretty well plastered and then Motors.' So that if Walter Reuther asked for
has to be taught. It's taught when the children are they'd go to work writing his life history. He had extraordinary raises and life benefits from General
quite young; and then once people begin to get on, beautiful expressions, shovelling out all the manure Motors, General Motors would make higher
everyone's playing poker, and playing politics, and so forth. And very sort of easily appealing, profits. The board of directors of General Motors
bureaucratic politics in corporations, governments, talking about the different centres of man and so just didn't believe it was so, so they put in a com-
how to get on, look after your family, the game forth. I think too well of the voodoo people to puter and sure enough it came out that way, and
from then on is not the truth ...What excites me is really call a Gurdjieffian voodoo... they yielded as no board of directors had ever done.
that I've discovered the truth is innate, and the (The conversation passed to questions relating to modern They'd always assumed that the interests of labour
lying is superficial, superimposed; and the young technology). and those of the owners were inimical. So they
world I find is making out, is holding with its FULLER ... All we have to do is get an overall 12% yielded and then within three years after they
innate truthfulness, and it no longer wants to go efficiency in the economy instead of an overall 4% yielded to Walter Reuther's demands, General
along with the symbols of power structures... And I and you're taking care of 100% of humanity. I Motors were the first corporation to make a billion
find the young world enjoying costume and what know it's technically highly feasible and society dollars after paying taxes...
feels good, in contradistinction to what are con- really gets enough awareness of what's going on (The train arrived at Oxford station.)