Page 64 - Studio International - July August 1974

Leonide Massine strictly what he suggested. without Tchaikovsky's remarkable mixture would not lead but to
DS: Were there other people with score ? What would be the dilettantism of a very mediocre kind,
in conversation whom you felt you had to take that Sleeping Beauty without and I found it was always so —
part of playing second fiddle ? Tchaikovsky's remarkable score ? everybody tried but they never
with David LM : Generally yes, generally yes ; At that time Ivan Vsavolojsky was succeeded.
Matisse the same thing. director of the Imperial Theatre DS: Did you feel at the time and do
Sylvester DS: You're very modest in your who was an intelligent and cultured you feel now that the different
attitude, aren't you ? man enough to suggest already then elements in Parade worked
This interview was recorded when LM : Well you see this is not really that ballet is not ladies on points, successfully together—that the
Massine was in London recently modesty. I think this is a very logical turning on points, in pink tutus, you purely cubist element of the
preparing the revival by the London way to work with an artist because see. Managers' costumes and the design
Festival Ballet of Parade, the product after all there's a great difference DS: In your autobiography you talk of the performers' costumes — did you
of his legendary collaboration in between a youngster who starts his again and again of the way that a feel that this worked as an aesthetic
1917, under the aegis of Diaghilev, career in the ballet — a very limited particular kind of painting has whole?
with Cocteau, Satie and Picasso — world — and such giants like Matisse, inspired you — of how the ideas for a LM : I feel it was the most interesting
legendary above all because it like Picasso. Here is the answer; and certain kind of movement or a experience of that period and the
brought Cubism into the theatre. Dali's amongst them in his own way. certain ballet have been inspired by fact is that for some reason everybody
The natural thing to start questioning DS: So you are really saying that some painting that you've seen. Did tried to understand this work, why
him about, therefore, was his wide ballet is no more dance than it is you talk to your collaborators about is it you see ; and I always say well it
experience of collaborating with design and music and so on, and this? hasn't got the importance of
major painters and sculptors, under that it is not a matter of the other LM : No, this was directly for me; Sacre du Printemps but there are some
Diaghilev and after. D.S. elements being subordinate to dance? if I see a Simone Martini it was me elements which were very, very
LM : Diaghilev very justly said that who was shocked by it you see; if I avant-garde and which gave the
David Sylvester: You've worked
with artists like Bakst and
Goncharova who were essentially
stage designers, and you've worked
with outsiders like Picasso, Matisse,
Derain, Laurens, Miró, Masson and
Dali—and in many cases worked with
them on their first job in the theatre.
How do you feel about the differences
between working with specialists
and with designers who are not ?
Leonide Massine: Easel painters,
yes, easel painters. The answer, I
think, lies in that; that the so-called
scenic artists are at certain moments
very limited, whereas real artists
such as have existed in history, they
have no limits. Their art is not
measured by any particular measure.
Scenic artists have limits and I
daresay I think I was a little bit
instrumental in that because when I
saw Picasso, when I saw Matisse, I
realized that it is nonsense to remain
in scenic art, you understand.
Of course it was Diaghilev who
made me know Picasso and Derain
and Matisse. Through him they all
came to ballet but to me there was no
question how much more valuable
their work was for the creation of new
ideas.
DS : And they all seemed to be able
to adapt themselves quite quickly to
the needs of the theatre ?
LM : Oh there was that very
extraordinary thing. They bent a little the spectacle of ballet consists first of see Tintoretto, his colour, in the Parade the acrobats
bit and we bent a little bit and our all of course of the author, the poet or Scuola of San Rocco, it was me who
arms joined. writer, of the composer, of the was impressed directly. I think they incentive to go away and search.
DS: And it usually worked ? painter and the choreography ; it's worked directly on my imagination And certainly the Picasso point of
LM : You have just mentioned one one of the four elements. at first sight. view on these various old-measure
of the first : after that quarrel with DS: One of the four elements. DS: But I mean how much did you characters gave the character to the
Bakst it was André Derain, easel LM : Nothing more and he's dead talk to the designers about these ideas ? whole thing. I think it was a really
painter; then came Tricorne. The right, I think, on this. It's no use to LM : Oh, I might mention that in worthwhile thing to remember now.
answer is right in the realization ; try to beat everyone because you're discussion. DS: It was curious, because, before
then came Matisse Le Rossignol; just taking away from your vital DS: Have you ever felt a desire you started to choreograph Parade,
not one mistake. As he put it, there it collaborators, you live by them, they almost to design the costumes they'd already gone quite far with
was. bring you up. If you have a good yourself or to design the sets the planning of it, hadn't they ?
DS: And Jeux d'Enfants, with author, a good painter, a good yourself ? LM : Yes, Cocteau.
Mire> ? composer, what is more extraordinary, LM : No, I followed the principle DS: And Picasso had been
LM : Jeux d'Enfants also, and then then you're lifted. how could I touch something else if working on it too.
even Dali. In that particular case I wes DS: But of course this would be a I don't know my own craft; why LM : To a certain extent, but you see
so fascinated by what he was doing radically different position from should I go to put my hand into there was again Diaghilev who
that I let him lead ; he was really the Petipa's, wouldn't it, for whom I take literature and poetry when I'm only exerted a certain discipline on
main figure, working with him, it dance was primary ? at the very beginning in my own Cocteau. You know at a certain
because his ideas were extraordinary; LM : Yes, in his opinion it was like craft, with so much to discover. moment there was an argument about
it was not even a case of suggesting that; but let us see what are the That's the first thing and secondly voices coming through megaphones
something of my own. I followed results. What would be Swan Lake because I believed firmly that such a and Diaghilev said no, it can't be