Page 13 - Studio International - July August 1973

very clearly historically and see the differences not as artists, but as members of the town who but you are making the film. These people say
in the situation. There is, however, much are interested in these problems. We are not what is wrong and then they film it, the film-
criticism. They say, what do you want, do you involved as artists who paint and things like maker is just helping them.
want to have Mao here or what ? I say, of that, it would be silly and we would be in their This is the problem we had in the union - as
course it isn't Cuba but at the same time we are way. It is clear we must come as people long as we come along as an artist there was still
not walking human goods. It isn't the Cuban involved in their problem. a barrier, which was partly the fault with the
situation yet, today we work another way. They are putting the underground through Goddard situation. He came along initially as
The whole educational system for young where the working classes live in the centre, Goddard.
people is part of the ideology of the elite, the and through the old parts with low rents. I'm The same with the Russian situation where
capitalist elite. It is-very difficult to get changes for the underground and a better transportation the artists couldn't exploit the capitalist system,
here, which is shown in the fact that few artists system for the people but you must have good that is work through it, as we can.
are allowed to teach in schools. There is little alternative houses and rents which they can BM: There is something about film making
art taught, and what there is, is not taught as an afford. We don't want to do what they are that usually demands that several people work
activity for the child itself. They never say you doing in a suburb of Amsterdam called together as a group at the outset. Do you think
have to do it yourself, that you can be creative Bijlmermeer. A terrible thing; cages for the that equally in the architectural context of this
in a way you want. They teach the whole people, where rents are four to five times the country, the artists should be there from the
Rembrandt drama. There are other parts of original rent. This is why we fight the beginning ?
education where they do not give people underground. The people who own property BB: Yes, that is what we are trying to get in
their freedom. They are pushing people like through which this underground goes are these regulations as an official policy. I think that
cattle, to be used later on for the benefit of the compensated. The working class people here in the near future this will be a more or less
system. That's the same in England. have never worked together in an organization common thing. The organizers of the new
There is no way of changing this overnight, or together to make a protest. They are not Hague headquarters for the administration of
although there is artists' representation at experienced in writing letters to the Town southern Holland, although they have been
Government level. Council nor do they know anything about the democratic in recently asking their 1700
In the beginning we were disappoint ed with law. It took a lot of time to do all these things. artists to show an interest in the spending of
our results, we didn't reach our goal in a short At the moment the builders have run out of the 1% of the total building cost allocated to are
time but always thought we would in a month money. design aspect, started the actual project four
or two. After a while, we could see we were As an artist I am in this system, I am years ago. The plans for the basement were
silly to think any reaction would grow out of captured in it and am part of this whole art done twelve years ago. This is not really what
our action. So we have to continue in many business. There is no mystique or drama about we want.
different ways. it, I have to make money. I have a family and Now I am working for a complete new town;
This small recently composed action group need money. The way to get this money is just there was nothing there except a small farming
is connected with factory workers and is a to sell these pieces of art. In one way I am part village and flat land. In 1980 it will be a town of
political organization. Only artists who have of the system and I am forced to make a product 100,000 as large as Leiden or Delft. It is
clearly stated that they want political action which is accepted in this society as a work of art, Zoetermeer, about 3o kilometres east of the
are part of it and this is the big difference otherwise I would have to stop the whole thing Hague. I was commissioned by the minister of
between it, the BBK and the 69 Union, which and start working in a factory. However, I am culture to give advice about getting artists
are not political groups but normal unions. far more effective at making money through involved in the work. Next week there will be a
In this union we have clearly stated that we selling art because this making of art does not talk between the ministry and the town people
want to reach a socialistic society, but that you take t00 much time. I am now more or less about how to continue. The town is composed
can have socialistic society in many different well known in this country so I get a lot of of living quarters and official buildings for
ways. For instance, Sweden is a socialist society, commissions. This gives me lots of time for the transportation systems, station, hospitals,
so with that word you don't say too much. We class fight. Factory workers do not have enough schools and so on. Most of the people will come
want a socialist society which includes the time for this. from the Hague. Once a week there is a special
working class. Mart Stam tried to do something by building meeting where the people can come and see all
BM: Did you know that there was an artists' houses for workers in the Hook of Holland, but the plans and discuss them. The people can
union formed in England ? later became partly bourgeois and built for make whole new lists about how they want to
BB: I knew this. Not so long ago I was in Shell, etc., but he also became frustrated and have their homes, their playgrounds, whether
London and some of my friends talked to me left Holland. they want larger kitchens, in discussion with the
about it, but I have no direct contacts. They Joris Evans, a Marxist, and a film-maker, had Town Council. Do not get me wrong, the
sent me some papers without an address for any a big conflict here and went to Paris to make communist party in Holland at the moment is,
reaction I might have had. Marxist films. He wanted to film how people we think, part of the system. We (this new party)
I remember when I worked in the union were exploited in the factories. are against the communist party to which the
office in Amsterdam for several years people Goddard, around 1968, tried to make a film central committee of the BBK belong.
from England came to see how we had set the where the technicians and cameramen, etc. had Also, one of our group has completely
whole thing up, but I never heard anything a say in the organization but found it so finished with art and is now only working on
from them. difficult after several months of arguing that the organizing of action against pollution near
BM: What sort of reaction have the workers they gave up. Rotterdam. You cannot really say he is an
shown to your involvement in architectural The problem for all the creative people is artist in the way we are talking about. Another
planning and artists' designs in building that they are trained to work as an individual, man in Rotterdam is working completely in the
centres ? as a one-man show, in their own factory, and service of local action over housing and his art
BB: In Rotterdam old town the people have when you are working in a group things have is an art these people can use - posters, design,
trouble with the Town Council because they to be changed, the whole way of production this kind of thing. I don't know how far these
want to break down the houses to make way for altered. are possibilities for the larger group, but I am
a highway, and in Amsterdam to construct an Some political film-makers have succeeded convinced that these things are for the future.
underground. We have tried to do some by going to the factories and saying that this What is important is the fact that we want to
practical work for them, to organize protests, is a camera, with it you can do this and this, rearrange the environment. q