Page 62 - Studio International - April 1973

trustees, and we say yes or no. And so it's merely a MB: It's not so much money as men. You cannot required by Treasury minute to have four
contingent factor. We try to leave at least one gap a move a picture without at least two men. It all practising artists among its members. When a
year void until about 18 months or so before the piles up. vacancy is forthcoming we have to find either a new
time ; but it quite often happens that some show RC: But it would presumably be true to say that the lay trustee or a new artist trustee ; and because, at
comes up which is so attractive that we book it in. Oppenheim and Barry shows were fairly simple least in form, it is the Prime Minister's choice, we
But I must say that we console ourselves on behalf operations. are asked to put up two or three names. This is done
of the public by saying that there are the Hayward MC: Well, they were much more complicated than by the trustees, indicating their first, second and
Gallery, the Whitechapel, the Camden Arts Centre you might have thought. Without making any third choice. Before I was appointed, the trustees
and so on, which are also possible venues for these distinction about the quality of the work of art, the used to do this on their own and the Director made
exhibitions. Originally, when we knew that the Arts Oppenheim show was much more successful than out as best he could, which meant that usually he
Council was setting up its own gallery, a kind of the Barry show. went and spoke to the Appointments Secretary on
rough demarcation was made between what would RC: In terms of attendance. do you mean ? his own. And this I used to do until the trustees
be a Tate Gallery kind of show and a Hayward MC: Yes, and I am thinking too of the people who discovered I was doing it and thought it was better
Gallery type of show and a Whitechapel kind of show. actually saw them, their response. to take me into their counsels, which effectively
But the financial vicissitudes particularly of the I.C.A. RC: Have you plans to mount more of such prevented my going on my own to say my own
and the Whitechapel have made nonsense of that shows ? piece.
demarcation. And yet I think that the programme we MC: We have plans in the sense that every year we This doesn't mean to say that the Prime Minister
have going on at the Tate, because of this long vote a sum of money for such shows. The reason has to choose any of the names. He is in fact free if he
booking period, still reflects the pattern that we we haven't had any more of them recently is that the wishes to appoint somebody we have never even
imagined would be realized by the coexistence of sum of money was expended. The shows are a heard of. Fortunately he has never done this in the
these galleries. In other words, I thought that the great deal more costly than you might imagine. I case of the Tate. So far we've always been
Whitechapel would continue to do the kind of really don't know how to answer your question. I successful, if that's the right word, in getting a
medium-size, interim retrospective of both British certainly agree that more and more and more of this person who was known to us — although not always
and foreign artists which Bryan Robertson had kind of show should happen in London, and I the one we would most liked to have had. But it's
produced for many years; and that the I.C.A. seemed personally think the Tate should do more and more worth saying in passing that the trustees do choose
to be the natural venue for the kind of of these shows. But I don't necessarily think that the their own chairman from among themselves. That
interdisciplinary or journalistic, what's-going-on-at- Tate is the place to do the shows. is their own business entirely and is not dictated by
the-moment kind of show. And as you know very MB: There are to be facilities for this sort of thing, any outside person.
well, this has not really happened, and so a terrible not so much in our present extension, but in the RA: In point of fact you very often ask other members
lacuna has developed. future extension across the road. of staff for suggestions, or for our reactions to the
RM : So looking at London as a whole, there's an MC: That's perfectly true. The brief for the extension idea.
even grosser inadequacy of places in which to have across the road includes a studio-like space where NR : Yes. I didn.t say this because I take it as
serious exhibitions— particularly of 20th-century art it should be much more easy to do whatever is being understood that I discuss practically everything of
in public institutions—even than people make out. produced by artists at the moment, whereas to do importance with the senior staff. In the case of the
AS: But although many people sit on the same the Oppenheim show we had to re-cover a complete trustees we certainly discuss among ourselves who
committees, they don't seem to be able to solve the wall — it was not something that we could just do. we think would be most helpful to us in carrying out
problem. And then in the case of the Barry show, we were our job as we see it, and I can see that from the
MC: Well, they don't sit on that many committees, going to remove all the chairs, partly because of the point of view of the outside world some of the
curiously enough. I sit on the Arts Council committee, building operation, but there was nowhere in the choices may seem a little odd. But we have to
but nobody here has anything to do with the Tate we could move the chairs to. remember that although we often feel competent in
operation of the I.C.A., the Whitechapel, the Royal AS: But almost any office could have been filled operating within certain areas of the art world
Academy, the Camden Arts Centre, or with the with chairs : I don't mind being moved out of my there are other fields of expertise, whether legal or
R.B.A. galleries, and those are the other main office. financial or whatever, where it has been in the past
outlets. MC: Yes, all right, it could have been done at the advantageous to have trustees with special
RC: Do you think you ought to liaise more with expense of something else. knowledge, who can talk to people, possibly get us
such bodies ? RM : But to increase the Tate.s activities requires money and ease the way for certain things. And
MC: We try to. I think it's fair to say that we ring up more people, more money, more space, and we this in my view is one of the most positive
from time to time and try to find out what they're should like to see all these things increased. It's contributions the trustees can make. In other words,
doing. But because the considerations are so vague extraordinary how large a proportion of the people it's a contribution which is quite outside our
until they're actually finalized, it's very difficult to who complain that the Tate is not doing enough in a experience.
get an agreement. particular direction, don't simultaneously complain MC: I think there is one small addition to that, which
RC: Isn't there a desperate need to supplement the that the Tate is not provided with resources to do it is that it has become the custom for the Tate Gallery
rather predictable, monolithic, historicist modern with. and the National Gallery to exchange a trustee,
retrospectives with a more or less continuous series which mitigates the problems that you were raising
of smaller, more informal and very flexible shows of earlier.
younger contemporary artists ? You have tried this NR : It's more than a custom — it.s written into the
with Dennis Oppenheim and Robert Barry, but I Treasury minute. We each have a trustee who sits
thought there was something underpublicized and on both Boards, so that we both have a trustee
almost furtive about these two experiments, and common to each Board.
they have not been followed up. TRUSTEES RC: It might be worth while going through the list
MC: There is such a need. I.m not sure—obviously of present trustees, seeing who and what they are,
this is avoiding the question — whether the Tate is so that the kind of interests they represent can be
the institution best equipped or the place most clarified. The chairman, first of all.
appropriate to do this. I personally would like to do a RC: Much of what we have discussed so far NR: Well, Bob Sainsbury has shown a lifelong
great deal more of this. I don't really know why : I actively involves the Tate TRUSTEES as a body. You interest in art, in collecting art and in supporting
would find it at least as hard to argue for doing explained, Sir Norman, in a Studio International artists, providing scholarships and soon, quite
more of it as for doing less of it. The reasons for article of JulylAugust 1971, that the ownership of apart from the fact that he has had great business
doing less of it include the fact that there are these the Collection is vested in the trustees, who are an experience in being Chairman of Sainsbury's. So
other institutions which are better designed for it. independent body and decide all matters of policy, on almost every count he has a contribution to make.
And there are of course the dealers' galleries. purchases of works of art, acceptance of gifts, MC: There are two other trustees who are primarily
Arguments for doing more of it are fundamentally loans, restoration of works of art, exhibitions etc'. collectors, that is to say their position on the board
that the art you're talking about is in linear They are therefore a vitally important and powerful derives from the fact of their being collectors as well
succession to the Impressionists, part of the Tate's function, and yet most people as businessmen, and those are Ted Power and
Post-impressionists, Cubists and so on right down to would find it hard even to state who they are. Sebastian de Ferranti. Then there's Andrew Forge,
now; and therefore should be seen in that context. Perhaps we can throw some light on the mystery. who is both a painter and a critic.
And frankly that is the argument which weighs most trustees are appointed by the Prime Minister, but NR: Four trustees have to satisfy this requirement
strongly with me. But we have an extremely we all know that he acts very largely on advice a bit— it's written into a Treasury minute, but I won't
limited amount of space, and I suppose it's the from other sources. Who really chooses the bore you with how it arose— but it is variable if we
question of space, and to a lesser extent the trustees ? found it unbearable at any time. I think the people
question of money, which goes against this. NR: We must remember that the Tate Board is who fall into this category are Andrew Forge,
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