Page 63 - Studio International - April 1973

Howard Hodgkin, John Piper— who's also the RA: But when it comes to acquisitions, though leeway over purchases.
National Gallery representative—and Geoffrey usually pretty sound the trustees can occasionally NR : This is true.
Jellicoe, who's a landscape architect. But at the be a bit unpredictable. MC: I think it would be possible to bully them a bit
same time when we had David Sylvester on our NR : When I first began there was only the Director more in relation to purchases if it was worth it in the
Board, for instance, we mentally extended this who came to Board meetings apart from the context of these other things. That's my own view.
category to include those people whose lives were Secretary. Well, we gradually built up the body of RC: Do you think it right that the trustees of a
really wholly spent in the field of art. Practising staff side present, so that we're a pretty strong modern art museum should all be middle-aged or
artists do not always make good trustees. group. We've got the two Keepers of the collection, older, and therefore perhaps represent an
MC: They've been reluctant to serve, on the whole. we've got Michael as another full Keeper Establishment taste ? The Tate staff does include
MB: Geoffrey Jellicoe is very useful because he representing exhibitions and education, apart from much younger people, after all.
knows all about architecture, of course. myself, and there's Judith Jeffreys for good value, RA: We haven't found that age makes much
NR: We knew we would be involved in a building who's a Deputy Keeper and the senior difference.
programme in about ten years, so we thought an administrative person. NR : Because we virtually have two categories of
architect on the Board would be useful. RA: Yes, but we do have an enormous backlog : we trustee, there are two responses to that. We did try
RC:What about Niall MacDermot ? cannot guarantee getting what might seem to be to get younger artists, and we asked Phillip King
RA: Well, he was a member of the Labour even the most obviously desirable work into the initially, and then Howard. Phillip served two years
government. collection. Something may go wrong —you know then said he thought that was as long as a young
NR : But he's not here as an ex-Minister. how committees operate— it may hinge partly on artist should serve— a fair point of view. But I think it
Fundamentally, he's here because he's always who speaks first, whether he's very strongly in was partly because, being a very serious-minded
shown a great interest in art. favour... chap, he found it difficult to come to terms with
MC: And secondly, he's a lawyer— he's NR : I think really the most irritating thing is when judging the work of his contemporaries. I think also
exceptionally acute in knowing what goes in you get somebody who is perhaps asked to speak that he suffered a bit from ribbing by his
Parliament. Lord Harlech is somewhat the same on first, and who may know nothing whatever about it contemporaries, as having gone over to the
the obverse of that coin, isn't he ? In the world of and just says :'I don't like it.' And this is not the Establishment. Well, you see the position as
practical affairs. point— it's not whether he likes it or not, in a sense. regards younger artists. I think they do
NR : Yes, he's a man of wide experience. That's one of the factors, but it's not anyone's feel this.
RA: And a very open mind when it comes to the personal likes that we're concerned with ; it's RC: My question was really leading to the idea that
choice of works of art. whether it should be in the collection. every human being is inevitably bound to a certain
MC: I think it's true to say that you couldn't classify RC : The work of art is always on view, is it ? extent by his own generation, by what kind of
the trustees on the basis of their theoretical role and MC: Oh, yes, and if necessary there's an actual thoughts and feelings he was brought up with, and
find it would correlate too closely with their man-by-man vote. that therefore there's a danger if you have a Board
udgements, over issues like purchases, entry NR : But that is another thing : the question of the of trustees which is exclusively middle-aged or
charges and soon. work of art being on view. Ideally, it should be older, that you do become out of touch with new
RC: And Stewart Mason ? there, and you should be with it for a week or longer developments.
NR : Well, Stewart was until recently Chief if necessary. So I think it is rather hard on trustees NR: I think this is true. I am strongly conscious of
Education Officer for Leicestershire and as such who come in from another life, and they see this the advantage of having a staff, for instance, where
built up very considerable collections with thing for a short time — at most for an afternoon — their ages range over anything from 23 upwards.
practically no funds, buying adventurously among before they have to decide on it. They've got to We have got, in fact, an admirable age distribution
younger artists, particularly sculptors, and it was on absorb what it's about, what they're told, and then and I find it personally extremely rewarding as well
this record that he was recommended. they look at it and make up their minds. That's as fascinating to see the differences of view which
MC: He's been a pioneer not only in the imagining, unfair, really —well, not unfair, but it's unsatisfactory are passionately held and very well expressed. I
but also in the putting into practise of advanced for them as well as for us. think we do lack this in the trustees, although
educational techniques, advanced architectural RA: But if people outside the Gallery think that whether there are younger people — I suppose there
notions. sometimes the staff enthuse about a work of art and are— but whether they would give the time, or
MB: One thing we really don't have is an yet when it comes forward don't back it up or whether they can give the time ... You must
American-style fund-raiser trustee. something so that it's not bought, they don.t really remember that if you are a trustee it means that you
RC: Is there any conscious ratio in the present list understand the way these things operate. We can't can afford to give that amount of time, and most
of trustees between artists and business men, dictate to our trustees, and we have no vote as young people are busy doing a job of one kind or
politicians and collectors ? members of the staff. another.
NR: No, I think the only conscious ratio is between NR : It's made me very cautious, because I have RA: And it doesn't always work on the age question,
artists and others. The definition of eligibility, if I heard from people who have good reason to know you know. One of the trustees who is most
remember rightly, says something like : 'would need that there is a sort of belief among artists that we do responsive to new art is of course Ted Power, who's
to have shown an interest in art'. It's as simple as bring things forward and then let them fall, as also one of the oldest.
that, and it has been interpreted very widely in though bringing them forward is a smokescreen. RC: What kind of governmental pressures are
proposing trustees. But it is true to say that it is RC: As a sop. exerted on the Tate through the trustees ? We all
extremely difficult to find good trustees and NR : And I know that we, or perhaps I should say I, know, unfortunately, about the impending threat of
replacements. Even though they serve a seven-year have failed on a number of occasions where I know museum entrance charges, and the Tate's position
term, requirements for new trustees seem to come the artist has been involved and I particularly wanted on this has been made admirably public. But what
up all too frequently, and we're constantly being put the work to be bought; and artists blame us, not about pressures from the considerable anti-modern
to it to find people who really will be helpful. the trustees. art lobby in Parliament, from a government which
MC: It involves them in a great deal of work, RA: Ultimately, when it comes to the pinch, the may visit an especially controversial Tate show and
particularly the Chairman. To be Chairman of the matter is decided on a majority vote of the criticize it strongly? And how far does the supply of
trustees, I should think, is pretty well a half-time trustees. We put the case as strongly as we can, but governmental money for the expansion of future
commitment. if five vote against and only four in favour, out it goes. activities depend on good ratings for exhibitions,
NR : You can see how in a gallery like this, which NR : Now this is what really underlies what we said or an acquisitions policy which steers clear of
involves visiting a number of exhibitions if you're at the very beginning. I want to be convinced first, buying too many controversial works ?
going to do your job well, it's a different story from and if I am convinced, then at least I can go flat out NR: The political control is principally negative. In
being a trustee of the National Gallery, where they to get it. This is why I try to work on the principle : other words, in the power to deny extra money,
only acquire a few things. never let the trustees make up your mind. They can, which is most effective— couldn't be more so,
MC: The position of our trustees is very different inevitably, say yes or no ; and if you don't have to because it's unseen in a way, and almost
from that of American trustees, who quite frequently ask them. you should never be in a position to ask unprovable. So that we've always suffered from
buy the trusteeship more or less explicitly by giving them whether you should buy it or not—that should very often acting within a controversial field which
works of art or sums of money. It's not so here : be done before it ever gets there. politically is unattractive. If we can find something
Tate trustees have given works of art and money, MC: My feeling is that the fact that the trustees which is reasonably attractive to politicians, we get
but it.s not an intrinsic part of the role. Neither is it enjoy buying things is traded off against an support, like the new Stubbs painting. But it means.
the case, as I believe it is in some Continental occasional failure of a purchase, not consciously, that if you're going to play that game, you're always
countries, that the trustees are avowed experts — but over a long period. In other words, the sense of looking for pictures for politicians, which is not the
you know, professors of art history. their authority which is necessary to get them way in which we can operate. The second question.
NR : Neither, unlike some other countries, are they involved in the case of entry charges, shall we say, about to what extent are we likely to be made
at all political appointees. is traded off against giving them a certain amount of dependent upon the success or otherwise, from the

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