Page 65 - Studio International - April 1973

arrangement of light and so on, so that you can do in the street thinks of the Tate he thinks of modern the site at one go. The building which we have
practically any sort of happening in there. Beyond art. projected would cover, say, half the site; and as far
that, what we've asked for is a continuation of the MC: No, no. The correspondence we've had shows as we can judge, if I dare put a figure on it, would
flexible space we've asked for in this present that an enormous number of people don't actually cost about £4 million.
extension, so that the fourth quarter of the existing know the difference between the Tate and the RC: Is the idea of building in stages governed by
museum represents a thinking towards the National Gallery. They think that the Tate is the financial considerations?
flexibility we expect to get in the new building. National Gallery and vice versa. And this in spite of NR: Well, by two things. Practical requirements,
RC: But do you see a clear distinction between all the posters, the advertisements and all that. and sheer money.
modern art in the new building and the British RM : The Tate has a very traditional look from the MC: If we could build it up all at one go, we would
collection in the old ? outside. probably house the whole collection. And over a
NR: I think the answer is no. I can see that there AS: I've seen people go past the National Gallery in long period it would be sort of whittled away.
could well be two directors, two staffs and a a bus and say : 'Oh, there's the Tate, why does one NR: Michael calculated that this initial building,
common board of trustees if possible. I don't say never go in there?'. which has got to be half of the entire project, say,
it's desirable, but it's quite possible. On the other MC: We get people here who come in and say : would take us up at rather better than the present
hand, if there is no perfect legal and physical 'Where's the Leonardo ?'. density to the end of the century. And it will be over
separation, it leaves the possibility open of flowing NR: Michael, surely this must be the rare visitor. double the size of the present Tate.
one or other backwards and forwards as you wish. MC: I wouldn't care to say how rare. MC: Yes, it would be more than double.
So at one stage you could have the whole of Bacon, RC: I know that a brief has been prepared on the N R: In terms of actual public exhibition space,
say, in the place over the road ; or if time moves on new Hospital site building for submission to the quite apart from any services.
you could put Bacon back in the British collection. government. What have you proposed there, and MC: The other thing is that the entrance to the Tate
MC: The problems which you raised in relation to what ideas about the nature of a modern art museum was put up for monumental reasons, to produce a
transference between the National Gallery end the have affected these propositions ? suitable state of mind reflecting the kind of art of the
Tate obviously could be avoided if the two NR : I've already said a word about one aspect of it, period. And although this entrance will remain
collections were under one lot of trustees. the flexibility of the space. The second consideration active, there will hopefully be a second entrance
NR: It did have a bearing on the discussion because which is perhaps slightly peculiar to some people's which will allow various parts of the building to be
although we're now legally separated from the minds is that we have asked for the maximum available at times when other parts are closed. For
National Gallery, it's often been wondered whether amount of daylit gallery, quite apart from what else lectures, and so forth, so that they could be more or
it was really advantageous. Because before, there we get and realizing all the difficulties this raises in less round the clock. I guess it's a universal
was no question of the fluidity of the thing : you terms of control, heating and so on. My feeling is — aspiration to make the works of art much more
could move pictures about as you wished. The only and I'm not sure whether it's entirely well based — available. And this means on the one hand opening
thing was, where one thought these pictures would is that after a period of 20 years building black boxes at different times of day, and on the other hand
be shown to their best advantage. But in this for museums, the general tendency is to move away making them more available intellectually. One of
situation, the difficulty wouldn't arise, because from that and go back to natural light. Maybe this is the main elements of the forward programme of the
you'd have the same Board and possibly the same just personal prejudice, because I've always Tate, not only in terms of building but institutionally,
director controlling the two buildings. It does raise preferred natural light, although I must confess that is to try to build up some relationship with the
the question of whether it would be sensible and when you see artificially lit galleries well done they schools, the training colleges and universities. And
advantageous to divide these two disparate are perfectly satisfactory. So I'm not sure whether the building has this in mind, to make this possible
responsibilities, and give them different directors, it's just straight prejudice or whether it's based on physically, whereas at present it's barely possible.
different finances, different Boards of trustees. anything more profound. We have in fact in this RA: The intention is more or less to have galleries
MB: There's one advantage, albeit at a low level, in brief asked for maximum daylight, which means of on two floors : the permanent collection on the upper
this extraordinary mixture. One starts with gallery course that we are aiming at a comparatively low- floor, presented in natural light, and the floor below
one, which is a straightforward picture-gallery of rise building. And I think there are other reasons why for temporary exhibitions and special events and
paintings from the 1 6th and 17th centuries, and it should be a low-rise building. We would find, we that sort of thing.
when we've finally built across the road one is going were told, that we wouldn't be allowed to do a MC: I don't think we've mentioned the archive,
to develop out from perforce the picture in the frame high-rise anyway — in spite of the fact that we're which seems to me an absolutely fundamental arm
to something much wider. But it also has an effect next to the tallest building in London. There's a sort of this programme.
even now on the ordinary visitor to this Gallery. He of plot ratio relationship which allows you to have a RC: Do you think that your ideas about what the
comes to see the Gainsboroughs, or he comes to see tower if you have virtually nothing on the rest of the new building should be might clash with the
something on the modern side, and partly by site. You can stack it up all in one tower if you like. architect who will eventually be assigned the job ?
accident and partly because he's a bit curious he But we do know from experience in other countries NR: Well, we're not quite sure how this is going to
wanders over to the other side. And half the time he's that it's very difficult to get people to move vertically workout, because the new Minister—it's now Paul
absolutely appalled, to judge by what our in a gallery. Even in the Museum of Modern Art, Channon — has to decide. You see, the government
attendants say, particularly at the moment when one which only has three storeys, there's apparently a is the body which commissions the building ; we
can walk straight from the 18th-century galleries great resistance to going upstairs. are only the tenants. So although the work has been
into where the modern things are. They're appalled, MC: And moreover if you have a number of floors, done here, in that the thinking has been done here
butyou will get people who will at leastsee modern you are almost obliged to have a linear pattern of and the drafting of the brief, it then goes over to the
art, which they would never even go to the building public scanning what is on view. So that it means Department of the Environment who decide whether
to see otherwise. And alternatively, there are people the professionals determine in what order and they will give the brief to one of their architects, or
who will only look at modern art because it's of the therefore in what relationships people experience whether they are prepared to go out to competition,
moment, and think that old art is rubbish, and they the works of art, whereas if they're laid out in a which we had hoped would be the case. Or placed
come here and think : well, we've heard of this chap single area, the number of relationships between with a particular architect. But the last Minister
Turner, he's supposed to be a precursor of modern one work and another is much more elective : a shelved this for a matter of months—we've been
art, so we might at least go and look at those. It may person can find his own way about. But the brief waiting for at least six months — and the whole
be pure accident, and they may be looking at the comprises, as usual, three elements. A large area programme has been put forward because no
exhibits for entirely the wrong reasons—and it will which Norman has described, which has hopefully decision has been made. But at the same time it does
not take in anything like every case—but there will the best visual conditions for viewing works of art in depend even more on a decision by Lord Eccles as to
be people who more or less by accident stumble the permanent collection ; another element which is how he's going to apportion the money over 1975
into something new, something different. for temporary exhibitions and works of art which to 1980. So until he decides whether the Tate is
MC: We think that's exciting, but people come to involve very exceptional viewing conditions, which going to have the money—and there are three times
the Gallery mainly to have their prejudices is rather like a big television or movie studio, where as many projects as can be met out of the budget—the
reinforced. They think when they come : I like hopefully any conditions, or almost any conditions Department of the Environment obviously cannot
Constable and I hate Picasso. And curiously enough, which the artist might look for, can be provided ; and make any decision on the more practical details.
the one survey we've done that really covers this then there are the services which partly provide new MC: Eccles has to argue to the Treasury for money
point shows that more people come to see the space and partly— by moving existing things out of for all the museums, building projects and so on ; and
modern collection than come to see the British the building — provide space in this building for an he argues this on the basis of specific projects.
collection. I think that, rightly or wrongly, they come enormous increase in the educational activities of Having been given the sum of money, he has a cake
in order to hate the modern collection and to love the Gallery. And there would be a new restaurant. which must be carved up between all the national
the British collection. But they probably quite often NR: I think we should perhaps also say that the first museums and galleries.
find that it's the other way about. brief we put envisages at least a two-stage building. RC: But do you think that the government will
RC: I think it's true to say, isn't it, that when the man In other words, we're not anticipating building over automatically accept your proposals ?
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