Page 33 - Studio International - January February 1975

how, I learned that Marcel Duchamp was
Marcel Duchamp
as a
chess player
and one or two
related matters
Francois Le Lionnais
interviewed by
Ralph Rumney
My interest in discussing Duchamp
as a chess player with François Le
Lionnais was prompted by the fact
that a game he played, and won,
against Duchamp in 1932 was
published in the Wiener Schach
Zeitung with comments by
Tartakower and has been frequently
reprinted, most recently in 'Florilège
des Echecs en France' (Tristan Roux- in European Dada and we met from time
Payot 1974).
The introduction to this game in this
work describes Le Lionnais as a founder
of Dada, an accusation which he
indignantly denies, but as he says :
`I was a witness of its beginning. I
knew Tzara, Picabia and Duchamp for
different reasons. When I began studying
a chess player. So we used to meet in a
club - the Caissa club (Caissa is the
goddess of chess) which shifted from one
café to another every ten years or so .. .
This gave a new substance to our
friendship. We would meet to play chess
and talk chess and then very quickly the
discussion turned, I wouldn't say to
Dada, but to our ideas . . . For instance
La Mari& mise a nu.'
He talked to me about that long before
it was made, about his preparations ...
`I think we met in 1921 or 22. Then we
lost touch in 24 or 25 until 27 or 28 and
since then we've never really been out of
contact. And of course once he settled in
Neuilly we saw a lot of each other, almost
entirely in connection with chess.
`When I founded OuLiPo, Marcel was
made an associate member, and though
he did not take part in our work he was
interested in it. So we met from time to
time when there were chess tournaments
... for instance we were together at the
Monaco international tournament in, I
think, 1966. A chess tournament always
begins at three in the afternoon and ends
at eight. At five past three Marcel and I
would be seated in a quiet corner about
three yards from the boards and at eight
we would leave. In the meantime we
might get up three or four times to have
a coffee or pee, but otherwise we stayed
glued to the board and of course
exchanged our ideas and opinions about
what was going on. I noticed that he had
perhaps a certain American patriotism . . .
He would say "I think Larsen is being
too optimistic" or "Ah! at last Fisher's
won his game". It would have been
interesting to collect his comments but
they're lost forever.'
Q
'Could you describe Duchamp's
qualities as a player ?'
FLL 'I don't know how well I can do
that . . . in his style of play I saw no trace
of . .. a Dada or anarchist style though
this is perfectly possible. To bring Dada
ideas to chess one would have to be a
chess genius rather than a Dada genius.
In my opinion, Nimzovitch, a great chess
player, was a dadaist before Dada. But he
knew nothing of Dada. He introduced an
anticonformism of apparently stupid
ideas which won. For me that's real Dada.
I don't see this Dada aspect in Duchamp's
mathematics in the Science faculty in style. What I did find was considerable
Strasbourg, Dada already existed a bit - honesty; he was very serious and very
in Berlin, and to some extent in Paris and applied. This is also exemplified by the
New York. But Strasbourg is a train stop way he set about 'La Mariée mise a nu'.
between Paris and Zurich. And Maxime This may have been a fundamental trait
Alexandre, Marcel Noll and I were three of his character, which was in fact very
very enthusiastic Dadaists. But I am a serious.
very marginal person - a sort of `It must be stressed that he
"anarchist who refuses to join an represented France in the Chess
anarchist organization" - and while I felt Olympiads, and consequently he was
that Dada was for me I did not wish to be always up against stronger players than
part of a Dadaist organization. himself. He was often matched against
`I got to know Duchamp when he came international class players. And this
over from the States and became involved prevented him from playing brilliant
games. It's easier to play brilliantly
to time . . . For me the essence of Dada is against a weaker player than a stronger.
Picabia, Tzara and Duchamp. Anyway I Being himself the weaker he had to play
broke away when Surrealism appeared. very carefully and this was a handicap.
In some way I didn't want to get involved. He played a very fine game in which he
Because it seemed to me that Surrealism forced a draw against Marshall, who was
was an embourgeoisement and recuperation champion of the United States from 1909
of Dada. to 1936 and a world championship
`Well, at that time, I'm not quite sure candidate.' ►
23