Page 34 - Studio International - January February 1975

Q 'You say he was not Dadaist as a characteristic of Duchamp and I liked it empty squares on the board which are
chess player . . . but was he an better than Picabia and Tzara, though I apparently unrelated. •
innovator ?' admire them both much more than
'Absolutely not. He applied
FLL Breton who seems to me to be lost in the Bourbaki is a collective pseudonym or
absolutely classic principles, he was mists of the bourgeoisie. Duchamp seems nom de plume for a société anonyme of
strong on theory - he'd studied chess to me to represent a tendency to combine famous French mathematicians formed
theory in books. He was very conformist what I might call a simulation made with before the Second World War.
which is an excellent way of playing. in scientific methods but applied to an area Ou Li Po stands for Ouvroir de la Littérature
chess conformism is much better than which is not science. 'The same thing Potentielle, a group which included Le
anarchy unless you are Nimzovitch, a might be said to some extent of Raymond Lionnais, Perec and Raymond Queneau, the
genius. If one is Einstein one says the Roussel.' aim of which was to explore techniques
and methods of creating literature.
'Did Duchamp show any interest in
opposite to Newton of course, if one is Q
Galileo one contradicts everyone. But recent forms like kinetic art which seem
otherwise it's safer to be a conformist.' to start from a scientific approach ?'
Q 'What exactly was Marcel Duchamp's FLL Francois Alexandre Le Lionnais, born in
'Well we hardly mentioned them;
attitude to mathematics and of course there were his rotodiscs which Paris in 1901, has been, among other
science ?' were a step towards kinetic art. But more things, a construction engineer working
'Well, he showed interest in our
FLL and more when we met, in his last years on telephone cables, chief engineer at the
conversation. He liked talking to people especially, it was not to talk about art, French Ministry of Works, director of
with a scientific background, and he but about chess. He was much more general studies at the École Supérieure
asked them questions; he talked about interested in chess. I greatly admired the de Guerre, head of the Education and
mathematics. But until the end of his life book he wrote with Halberstad, "Les Science Department at Unesco,
he was stuck at Henri Poincaré - I Cases conjuguées et l'opposition scientific adviser to the new Larousse
managed to change his ideas quite a lot reconciliées". That is really in the dictionary, a member of the scientific
towards the end of his life. He had read a scientific spirit, not at an extremely high committee of Radiodiffusion Television
lot of books - not mathematical texts level but authentically scientific. And in Française, and scientific consultant in the
which he would have been unable to it he takes chess a step forward . . . a very French section at the Montreal World
understand, but .. . philosophical clear step forward in a limited domain, Exhibition. He is also an adviser to the
works . . but definitely a step forward.' French national commission at
Q 'Popular science . . . ?' Q Unesco, and a member of the
'Could you amplify that ?'
FLL 'That's it, for instance "Science FLL committee for the restoration of works of
'A game of chess is normally
and Theory". That is the philosophical considered as being in three parts. The art in French national museums. He is the
musings of a great mathematician, which opening, the middle-game and the end- author of many scientific books, has
combine philosophical and mathematical game. The opening involves a kind of written many articles, and is a contributor
qualities. This influenced him a lot. And thought process which no longer occurs to L'Encyclopédie Française. His books
then when we ran into each other I as the game proceeds . . . the pawns can on chess are well known, and include
surprised him by saying (and I have no advance one or two squares at the `Le Jardin des Échecs' and the
idea what influence this may have had) beginning but cannot retreat. And that is `Dictionnaire des Échecs'. He is at
"Poincaré - he's completely out of date". what is behind opening theory. In end- present working on two books, a
That surprised him, shocked him. And I game theory, because many pieces have `Dictionnaire des Sciences' and an
talked to him about Bourbaki, who was disappeared, often one can only hope to `Anthologie des Nombres Remarquables'.
very modern at the time. Because I was win by transforming a pawn into a
involved with the Bourbaki movement Queen. The theory of the middle game is
from its origins just like Dada . . . In my another kettle of fish. Well his
own work Dada was at the origin of contribution occurs within a particular Paris 1932
things like Le 3ème Secteur and area of general end-game theory. It
Bourbaki gave rise to OuLiPo - with a lot sometimes happens that there are no M. Duchamp
of free interpretation of course. And when `pieces' (Queen, Rook, Bishop, Knight)
I spoke of Bourbaki to him he was very left on the board except the two Kings V
interested, and then I remember saying, and a certain number of pawns. If one of
towards the end of his life, "Bourbaki's the pawns can get through to the other F. Le Lionnais
finished, it's out of date", and he seemed side and become a Queen that's the end of
to be pleased that things had moved on. the game But pawns block one another, The commentaries on this
Then I would talk to him about Claude and sometimes when there are a lot of game are by
Berge, set theory and so on.' pawns on the board the whole position is
Q frozen In that case the only possibility is S. Tartacover
'Would you agree that in much of
Duchamp's work . . . the collections of for the King to manoeuvre round the
documents, "Les moules maliques" and so pawns, and take his opponent's pawns so
on, there is a quasi or pseudo scientific as to get one of his pawns through. The
P - QB4
approach ?' theory is very difficult. We had a r. P - QB4
FLL 'Yes, even pseudo and quasi . . . sixteenth- or seventeenth-century theory The symmetric treatment.
Kt - QB3
that is there is always the margin of error called the theory of opposition but 2. Kt - QB3
which an artist can't avoid because his nothing else. Now since the two Kings 3. P - KKt3
culture is inadequate, and at the same can move on to a number of squares Instead of this complex system devised by
time a quality of vision which gets him without any apparent danger, why is it Brême, the lively opening of the centre by
through somehow. It's probably that in the solution to a problem 3. Kt - KB3 followed by 4. P - Q4 is also
something like love where one finds Reichelm was able to show that if the readily used.
something by other methods than pure White King moved to a certain square at 3.... P - KKt3!
reason.' one end of the board he obliged the Black 4. B - KKt2 B - KKt2
Q 'It seems to me that the extremely King to make a certain move ? It's as 5. P - Q3
P - Q3
conformist style of Duchamp's chess though there were a sort of telepathy 6. P- K4
which you describe has parallels in between the squares ! And what An important decision. 6. Kt - KB3
everything he did, and that perhaps Halberstad and Duchamp perfected was Kt - KB3 ; 7. o-o o-o etc. is more usual
instead of looking for evidence of Dada in the theory of this relationship between (and safer) but White would like to branch off
into the Desde formation (characterized by
the way he played chess we should be squares which have no apparent the structure of the pawns QB4, Q3, K4 and
looking for aspects of this conformism in connection, Les Cases conjugées, which possibly KB4 as well. P - KB4 should be
his most anti-conformist actions ?' was a sort of theory of structures of the given consideration here.
FLL 'I quite agree. In fact I have said board. That is to say because the pawns 6....
P - KB4
so. This serious appliqué side of Duchamp are in a certain relationship one can A considerable innovation which should
shows up everywhere. I regard it as perceive invisible connections between give Black counterplay on the 'KB' file,
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